Kathy Stevens: The True Lives of Turkeys and Leading with Love

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Foreign.

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Hi everyone and welcome back to In Behalf of Animals.

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I'm Nicole Arcello. As always,

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I'm so grateful to have you join me today. I'm thrilled

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to be talking with Kathy Stevens, the founder of Catskill Animal Sanctuary.

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Kathy has truly changed the vegan world over the past 25 years

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by creating a sanctuary that's not just about rescue,

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but also about education and inspiring compassion.

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Today we'll explore what it means to lead with love,

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dive into the real lives and emotions of turkeys, and talk

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about how we can meet our families with compassion during the holidays,

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even when they're still participating in the very things we dedicate

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our lives to. Stopping. Kathy also shares heartwarming

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stories about the animals at the sanctuary. I'm so excited for

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you to hear our conversation. And before we dive in,

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I want to give you a sneak peek at something really special.

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We've got a bonus Thanksgiving episode that we will be releasing

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next week on Thanksgiving Day. We want to welcome you into our

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lives this holiday, a space where fellow vegans can come to

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feel supported and celebrate compassion. Patrick and I will be

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chatting, reflecting, and we'll hear from some incredible vegan

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animal rights activists as they share what they do on Thanksgiving

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and how they navigate the day. We'd love for you to spend

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some of your holiday with us. Subscribe and follow now

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so you won't miss it. And now my

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chat with Kathy Stevens. Foreign.

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Hi Kathy. Welcome to In Behalf of Animals.

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Thanks for the invitation. Nicole, great to be with you.

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It's so good to see you and I'm so grateful and honored to

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have you here with us today. Catskill Animal Sanctuary has been around. You created

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this about 25 years ago, is that right? Yep.

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So for people who don't know, Catskill Animal Sanctuary is, I think most people

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in the world know. Can you just give a brief overview just to kind of

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let people know what you do? Sure. Where you are.

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Sure. We are. I'm newly retired, but I will always use

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we. We are Hudson

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Valley based sanctuary for 11 species of farmed

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animals and a center for the promotion of vegan living. And we

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have rescued many thousands because we've been around for a

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long time and have a big property and

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worked with as much vigor to help

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people, good people who love animals, who haven't yet connected the

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dots between their habits and the suffering of animals,

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to understand who the animals are.

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And we've done that through a variety of ways, from children's camps

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to weekend tours to a program with New York City public schools.

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We had for many years, there's a vibrant cooking program and

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food samples that we handed out on weekends. So that's.

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That's who we are. And in the process of those, those 25 years, I've learned

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some truths that have changed who I am and

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that will be with me forever. I've. It's been an honor to do this work.

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Catskill is such a. I always call it Catskill Casual.

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It's such a beautiful place. It's such a serene,

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peaceful place. The tagline for CAS is love spoken here.

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And I've heard you talk about leading with love.

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And can you share what that means? Because it's so important. I think you

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were just touching on it a little bit. But what does that mean

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to you, leading with love? What it means

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is to start with the assumption that most of us are good,

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most of us are kind, most of us go

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about our daily lives with those sort of principles

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as a. Or. Or characteristics, as a foundation.

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And as I heard you say in looking,

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listening to one of your earlier podcasts, you said

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your version of this. None of us is intending to harm.

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I used to say in my talks, no one wakes up in the morning and

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says to themselves, I can't wait to torture animals at breakfast,

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lunch, and dinner. It's just how we've been

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taught that we are supposed to eat. So if

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you start from the understanding that nearly all of us ate

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animals, that we live in a world that discourages

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us from thinking about the implications of that

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choice, and then have everything

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that you do stem from those

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truths, then you're not

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approaching people with anger, not with judgment, not with impatience.

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And so people allows

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people's hearts to stay open and to be more receptive and

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to feel those wonderful animals. And quite honestly,

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what we've learned over the years is that they are

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our very best vegan makers. I can go all over the country,

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you know, doing presentations or write a book or,

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you know, people can provide

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wonderful vegan food.

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But when a person who's only had experience

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with dogs and cats, or maybe dogs and cats and a rabbit, or,

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you know, with, with. With the animals who live in our homes

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and they walk into a field and

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a cow licks their face over and over

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and over, over, or they walk into a turkey barn and

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a big turkey walks over and settles

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into their lap and drapes their head over the person's

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shoulder, giving them a hug because they are so affectionate,

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that's so often all a person

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needs to understand.

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And so there's no need for us,

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us Vegans to approach this

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work with anything or from any place other than

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a place of love and understanding. Right. I love that. And that

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is it. It just, I was like closing my eyes and thinking about a turkey

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falling asleep in my lap and just that, that loving.

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And they approach, animals approach us with love. Right.

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Everything they do, they have this unconditional love for us. I feel like.

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And I'm glad you're, you're talking about turkeys because it's one of the, that's one

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of the big topics that I wanted to have you. You know, we're deep into

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November and Thanksgiving's a week away. And when I wanted to do an

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episode about turkeys, I said I have to ask Kathy Stevens if she'll please,

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please, please be on. Because I love the way, I love.

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The way you talk about all of the animals that you've

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interacted with. But can you, I could just, I want to just let you go

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about turkeys, about their true lives, their intelligence,

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their. So someone who maybe is not vegan stumbling upon this

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can learn a little bit more about that and maybe our vegan listeners

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can learn as, as you were just saying, that place of love and

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to talk about turkeys to their families as well.

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Sure. So no specific question. You just, just want me

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to launch? Because I'm ready to launch. I know.

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Okay. Wow. I love it. See, I'm a good,

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I'm a good host, Kathy. Fun. Okay. Well,

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it's interesting that it's a treat when you

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go to the store and you pick out your butterball turkey, which most

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of our turkeys are. You know, they are absolutely

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nothing like turkeys from history or

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what they, or what turkeys are supposed to be or like modern day wild

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turkeys, they are,

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have been selectively bred over the years to

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grow massive, to grow massive breasts,

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to have white feathers so

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that when you pluck them, the, the flesh looks, quote,

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unquote, cleaner. Wild turkeys

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can fly, these turkeys can't.

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They're too heavy. Wild turkeys have exceptional eyesight.

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These turkeys don't.

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They've lost a lot of their instincts that they

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needed in the wild. So,

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and, and, and on the other side,

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they are the most loving animal.

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They are profoundly affectionate. And I often say that.

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I think in all the years of working with animals and, and my experience with

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animals preceded that because I grew up on a, as you know,

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on a thoroughbred breeding and training farm. I've learned the most,

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I think, from the turkeys,

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I've learned the most. I mean, we really aren't

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a species that gets to engage with turkeys.

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Other than when those of us who are buying a heritage breed

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or some other non butterball breed of turkey goes

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to a farm and picks out the one that is literally going to be killed

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for our dinner, we don't have an opportunity

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to engage with them except at sanctuaries. But any sanctuary,

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not just cas, could tell your listeners of stories of

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their affection, their deep love of

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music. They will sing along to music.

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They how much they love their children,

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how they will. We had a turkey. I'll just tell you

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a few stories. We had a turkey named Michael.

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And Michael was actually a girl named

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after her rescuer.

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And Michael became massive quickly,

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the way they all do because of that selective breeding. Uh, you know,

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they are certainly not supposed to weigh 30, 40,

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50 pounds. But Mike,

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Michael, they all do.

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They're all massive and they're all

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in chronic pain because of it. You know, they're, they're, they're,

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their health is much like the health

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of a human who might weigh four or five

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or 600 pounds. That kind of weight impacts

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their respiratory system, their heart,

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certainly their joints. So despite being

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in chronic pain,

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Michael was such a loving spirit.

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And that bird loved tour

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days because she loved being around people,

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loved it. And she would often like,

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wadd because they waddle, because they're just massive,

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waddle up to a car door and wait

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for the visitors to come out. And she would literally accompany

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us on tours. Just, just. We have so many photos of Michael

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in the middle of a crowd because that's where she wanted to be.

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And I can't tell you how many vegans that bird created.

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We had another bird, Blue, who,

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whenever we took people into the turkey barn, could not

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resist a human lap.

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And it was important to say to people,

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if you're comfortable, please sit down because

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you want people to have that moment. And I'll

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never forget the day when I had a family of nine. They were staying overnight

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with us and I took them all into three

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generations into the turkey barn.

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And Michael chose the

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lap of a dad. One of

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the dad. There was dad and granddad and kids there, but the dad,

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this man, probably 45 to 50. And she,

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she, she settled into his lap and I

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watched as tears started. I'm just gonna cry remembering this. Tears started

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dreaming down his face.

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And we left.

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And that night

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I went over to say hello

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to this family. They were staying at our homestead. And he

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told me that immediately after they, they had that experience,

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they sat down as a family in the living room, and they all decided to

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go vegan. The third story

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is of when another man on someone else's tour

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had an experience with a turkey. And I was coming down

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the hill to the main barn and getting out of my car and we

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locked eyes. And apparently a turkey had. He just had a moment

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with a turkey. We locked eyes from a distance

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of, you know, 40, 50ft. And he sprinted up

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to me, this was a younger man. And he grabbed my forearms and he burst

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into tears and he said, I get it now

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tell me what to do, right?

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This. If we knew there's a reason why

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the industry doesn't want us to

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know these animals. They obviously don't want us to

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see the horror that is animal

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agriculture or the horror that is slaughter.

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The process of taking a living being who wants her life as much as

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we want ours into parts

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for humans to consume. But even before

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that, they don't want us to know these animals because

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if we knew that they were as emotional,

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as individual, as bullhearted

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as our dogs and cats,

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we'd have a vegan world, right? We'd have a right.

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Because most of us, most of us identify as animal lovers

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and we don't think about the fact that what we really mean is that we

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love our dogs and cats, right? So. So allowing

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good people once again to connect with

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these precious individuals

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allows them to figure out on

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their own that, wait a minute, their choice

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to eat them, to eat animals is not aligned

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with their most cherished values.

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And that if it's true that they are what these people

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have just experienced by virtue of coming to a sanctuary,

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then you know what, that's enough incentive for

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many of them to make a different choice,

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right? That's just so beautiful to hear

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that. Those stories. I think a lot

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of people think, you know, the term like bird brain or birds

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are just dumb. And I think a lot of people. And that might be,

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you know, I don't know if it's something we're taught or if the industry kind

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of puts that out there or it just makes. Gives. Helps people with their disconnect.

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But when they look into their eyes and they really see, you know,

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that love and connection, like you're saying,

247
00:16:59,430 --> 00:17:02,910
it's just, it's. It's so amazing. Speak to the

248
00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:06,950
fact about how birds are left out of the Humane Slaughter Act.

249
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:11,270
And it's, it's horrible and it's horrific, but I think it's really important to

250
00:17:11,770 --> 00:17:15,649
get that information out there, too. Like you were saying, the industry hides so

251
00:17:16,149 --> 00:17:19,249
many things. And. Yes,

252
00:17:19,749 --> 00:17:23,729
Go ahead. So the Humane Slaughter act was passed by Congress going on

253
00:17:24,229 --> 00:17:29,129
a hundred years ago. I believe it was 1948. But birds

254
00:17:30,009 --> 00:17:33,529
were exempt. So birds,

255
00:17:33,769 --> 00:17:37,449
you know, and. And slaughterhouses are

256
00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:44,900
places of absolute horror.

257
00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:49,620
They're, you know, even. Even in spite

258
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:55,660
of the obscenely

259
00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,260
modest concessions that are made for

260
00:18:00,420 --> 00:18:03,540
animals to spare them the most egregious suffering,

261
00:18:06,030 --> 00:18:08,510
birds are exempt from those.

262
00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:11,990
And now what's worse. Now,

263
00:18:12,490 --> 00:18:15,390
keep in mind, I just retired, so I'm not.

264
00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:18,750
I'm not staying absolutely current. So I. This.

265
00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:22,270
There's a possibility people should look it up on their own because there's a possibility

266
00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:26,150
that this is not true. But I. That that no longer true.

267
00:18:26,650 --> 00:18:31,840
But I strongly suspect that it is true that

268
00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:35,920
there was a movement to increase the

269
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:40,520
line speed. Now that's the speed at which the conveyor

270
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,080
moves in a slaughterhouse in.

271
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Specifically in poultry facilities.

272
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,240
I hate that term, but that's what they use in chicken

273
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:55,960
and turkey facilities. So that means

274
00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:59,600
that these workers, these slaughter

275
00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:03,440
workers, you know, and talk about an abusive industry for animals and

276
00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:07,040
the people who work in it, often, because it's the only job they can get,

277
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,040
right? These birds are whipping past

278
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,640
them, whipping past them.

279
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,400
And they are supposed to be slitting the throat, slitting the throat, slitting the

280
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:22,560
throat, slitting the throat. If they don't, the birds are already in

281
00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:26,460
agony because those. They've been shackled upside down,

282
00:19:26,860 --> 00:19:30,900
right? And that massive weight is gravity

283
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:37,180
is pulling them down. And they're supposed to be stunned,

284
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:40,220
but a lot. But if the.

285
00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:43,900
And they're supposed to be stunned after they're shackled,

286
00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:47,900
after their throat is. Let me see if I can remember the order of

287
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,900
operations here. The stunning. Often they often

288
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,780
miss the, like the electrocuted of the throat,

289
00:19:56,180 --> 00:20:00,020
the slitting of the throat, right? And so often birds are

290
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:04,020
electrocuted, stunned in a horrific

291
00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:07,940
process, right? And then the. There's also

292
00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:12,500
no regulation or almost no regulation of

293
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,260
transportation, right? So workers are catching

294
00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:20,180
the birds and cramming them into crates

295
00:20:20,260 --> 00:20:24,100
and stuffing them. I'm sure people have seen these on the interstate,

296
00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:29,330
stuffing them onto the trucks. And a

297
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:33,450
huge percentage of the birds have already

298
00:20:33,610 --> 00:20:36,090
died in their.

299
00:20:36,730 --> 00:20:40,730
These horrific warehouses. More die during

300
00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:46,490
the transportation process or have injuries,

301
00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:49,210
you know, broken legs, broken wings,

302
00:20:51,550 --> 00:20:53,950
internal hemorrhaging from the rough handling.

303
00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:59,230
So there is no. So much suffering.

304
00:20:59,790 --> 00:21:04,310
Well, it's really suffering from birth

305
00:21:04,810 --> 00:21:07,950
to death, Right, Right. It's suffering from birth to death.

306
00:21:09,230 --> 00:21:12,710
Just what we do to them to make them grow so fast is

307
00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:17,470
uncomfortable in the warehouses. They're breathing the ammonia from

308
00:21:17,710 --> 00:21:21,040
their Urine and they're moving around in their

309
00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:25,680
urine and feces. A lot of them are bald from the ammonia that

310
00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:30,040
they're living in. Their eyes burn, their throats burn

311
00:21:30,540 --> 00:21:34,520
from the stench. It's something

312
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,680
that our species does

313
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:45,120
that is uniquely cruel and

314
00:21:45,620 --> 00:21:49,350
there's no getting around. I often, you know, people say,

315
00:21:49,910 --> 00:21:53,550
what about humane slaughter or

316
00:21:54,050 --> 00:21:57,350
what about pasture raised this or what about free range that?

317
00:21:57,590 --> 00:22:01,510
Right? And the answer is this. If you

318
00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:05,270
say to me, you have two

319
00:22:05,770 --> 00:22:09,110
choices. I'm going to kill you. And in the case of turkeys,

320
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:11,670
it's after you're just a few weeks old,

321
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:15,300
right? Just, just a few months old, but I'm going to kill you.

322
00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:19,700
Do you want to live as

323
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,340
a free range turkey on a small heritage farm,

324
00:22:24,580 --> 00:22:28,100
for example, or do you want to be raised

325
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,700
like over 99%? Not raised, grown.

326
00:22:32,260 --> 00:22:36,180
Like 99% of our birds are

327
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:40,740
in tight quarters with no

328
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,090
concessions for your comfort and all the horrors of the transportation and slaughter.

329
00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:49,010
I'm going to say I don't want A or B. I want

330
00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:53,570
C. I want option C. I want to

331
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:58,130
live and express my unique energy

332
00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:02,690
for as long as time.

333
00:23:02,770 --> 00:23:05,730
As long as. As long as I have. As long as I have.

334
00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:10,250
So the fact that they are exempt from, from an act

335
00:23:10,330 --> 00:23:13,130
that was passed almost a hundred years ago,

336
00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:17,050
whatever, 1948, however many years ago that is over 75 years

337
00:23:17,550 --> 00:23:21,690
ago, is horrifying.

338
00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:25,769
Utterly horrifying. But it's

339
00:23:26,269 --> 00:23:29,930
all horrifying, right? Yeah. Not that like the Humane Slaughter

340
00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:33,890
act is anything to feel good about. It's nothing to

341
00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:38,240
feel good about. It's nothing to feel good about. But the poor chickens, turkeys don't

342
00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:41,520
even get that. No, they suffer more, right?

343
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,600
It's awful. It's awful. It really is

344
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,760
awful. And then we know that turkeys

345
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,880
want to lay in the sun and they want to take dust baths and

346
00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:58,000
they want to be with their families and they're not with their families in these

347
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,600
situations. They know. And we

348
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:07,740
had a very interesting phenomenon when the, the difference

349
00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:12,540
between this bird that we have engineered to

350
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,860
grow so big so quickly that they can't reproduce

351
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,220
naturally and they can't fly.

352
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:23,980
Like two of the most basic characteristics of

353
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:27,500
all beings, all birds,

354
00:24:30,140 --> 00:24:33,820
we've altered them. We've altered them to that degree

355
00:24:35,260 --> 00:24:39,860
and when it was brought home to us was when I

356
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:43,260
know Brian Shapiro was a guest of yours, Brian Shapiro,

357
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,380
STATE DIRECTOR of hsus HSUS

358
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,380
and I years and CAS years ago collaborated

359
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,020
on a rescue of turkeys who

360
00:24:57,620 --> 00:25:01,820
were being called, they were being shot on

361
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,860
the grounds of an. Of A psychiatric hospital that I vaguely

362
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,500
remember was on Staten island could be wrong somewhere in New York State.

363
00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:17,060
And we ended up taking in 40

364
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,900
birds who were supposedly hybrids,

365
00:25:21,540 --> 00:25:25,220
who supposedly couldn't fly more

366
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,820
than a couple feet off the ground. So we built to

367
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,580
their specifications. The USDA's

368
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,180
concern was that these birds not escape and interbreed

369
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,300
with wild, wild turkeys. So we built a 10 foot tall

370
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,380
fence. I hated it.

371
00:25:46,220 --> 00:25:49,460
We called it the penitentiary. They still had

372
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,460
their big roomy barn and their big roomy yard.

373
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:56,950
But Nicole, we brought those birds to

374
00:25:57,450 --> 00:26:01,070
CAS and within two hours most of them were on

375
00:26:01,570 --> 00:26:05,270
top of the roof of the barn. They could fly. They could

376
00:26:05,770 --> 00:26:09,630
fly on top of the barn and roosting in a

377
00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:13,630
trees all around the sanctuary. So so much for that that

378
00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:17,950
I can't. But the contrast between these birds, who could fly as

379
00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:21,860
well as a sparrow flies, you know, we would. I marveled at

380
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:24,540
that because I had never really,

381
00:26:25,820 --> 00:26:30,580
you know, when do you encounter wild turkeys? You encounter them scurrying

382
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,580
through the woods when you're on a hike or hurrying

383
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,380
their babies across the road when you're taking a rural drive.

384
00:26:38,780 --> 00:26:43,140
To see these animals 30ft

385
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,850
high, 30ft up in a tree was such

386
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:50,570
an eye opener for me. When you contrasted that with the fact that

387
00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:55,330
the best an industrial turkey can

388
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:59,130
do is sort of a very, very awkward,

389
00:26:59,290 --> 00:27:03,530
painful looking kind of jog. It's awful.

390
00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:07,690
Yeah, it really is. We have turkeys in our yard

391
00:27:07,770 --> 00:27:11,050
just about every day and they fly up into the trees

392
00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:14,980
and sometimes they fly up into the trees and I can't see

393
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,940
them. I see them fly into the tree, but I can't find them. They really

394
00:27:19,340 --> 00:27:21,100
like camouflage themselves up there.

395
00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:26,660
So I mentioned that Thanksgiving is about

396
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,460
a week away and many of us vegans are going to be seeing family.

397
00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:34,740
Although I suspect maybe not all vegans will be spending

398
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,200
time with their family for various reasons. But for those that are on the.

399
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,760
And maybe those that are skeptical and they're, they're not going to be with their

400
00:27:43,260 --> 00:27:46,800
family. But on the theme of leading with love, and after everything you just said

401
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:50,800
about turkeys, how do we,

402
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:54,960
the people we love, our family are taking part in the very thing,

403
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,960
right. That we're, we're dedicating our lives to stopping.

404
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,840
We want to stop animal suffering. People stop eating animals. How can

405
00:28:03,340 --> 00:28:06,530
we speak with both love for the animals and love for our

406
00:28:07,030 --> 00:28:10,530
families? And without emotions and big feelings getting in

407
00:28:11,030 --> 00:28:13,290
the way? Do you have advice on that?

408
00:28:15,050 --> 00:28:16,970
Well, I've had lots of practice.

409
00:28:18,890 --> 00:28:22,730
I will say that I

410
00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:27,010
have a few Thoughts? I think families are so uniquely individual,

411
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:32,320
and family dynamics can be so complicated. But in

412
00:28:32,820 --> 00:28:37,640
general, I think it's helpful to remember that

413
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,440
change is hard, that change takes time,

414
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,640
that almost all of us used to sit down at the Thanksgiving

415
00:28:48,140 --> 00:28:51,640
table and eat turkey. That's right. And so if you

416
00:28:52,140 --> 00:28:56,440
use as an analogous situation the.

417
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,670
The horror that is this current administration,

418
00:29:02,590 --> 00:29:06,430
I have plenty of

419
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:10,990
relatives who voted for Trump the

420
00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:14,910
first time. Plenty but fewer who

421
00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:18,710
voted the second time, and not a

422
00:29:19,210 --> 00:29:23,390
single one that supports him now. It took more

423
00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:26,830
horror, more news headlines, more.

424
00:29:28,350 --> 00:29:31,950
Mm. Just wretched behavior and

425
00:29:32,450 --> 00:29:35,710
decisions for the most conservative to go,

426
00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:39,750
oh, I cannot abide this any

427
00:29:40,250 --> 00:29:43,470
longer. Well, similarly, yeah,

428
00:29:44,750 --> 00:29:48,190
as with any big life

429
00:29:48,270 --> 00:29:52,150
change, because really, what we're asking when

430
00:29:52,650 --> 00:29:56,680
we sit down, we. We might want there. What we

431
00:29:57,180 --> 00:30:00,160
really want is there not to be a turkey on the table. But what we

432
00:30:00,660 --> 00:30:05,120
want more than that is for there. For there never to be an animal or

433
00:30:05,620 --> 00:30:09,560
an. Or an animal product on the table. And just

434
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,480
as most of us didn't do

435
00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:17,200
what that man in the turkey barn did, most of

436
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,660
us don't go vegan in an instant.

437
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:26,500
If we enter a situation and with

438
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,980
that expectation or with a smidgen

439
00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:34,900
of judgment or impatience,

440
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,020
what's that going to do? It's going to shut. It's. First of all, it's going

441
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,660
to ruin your holiday. Right. It's going to ruin. And you're going to be the

442
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,820
vegan that no one ever wants to invite. Right?

443
00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:49,780
Right. And it's not going to serve the greater

444
00:30:50,020 --> 00:30:54,060
good. So I

445
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,980
think just going with an understanding that change is hard,

446
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,860
that change takes time and perhaps storytelling

447
00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:07,660
about why it matters

448
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,940
to you or stories of your

449
00:31:12,430 --> 00:31:16,110
visits to sanctuaries. But. But I also

450
00:31:16,610 --> 00:31:20,590
think it's fine. I really think it's fine. I don't think

451
00:31:21,790 --> 00:31:25,030
Thanksgiving is the time to

452
00:31:25,530 --> 00:31:29,190
have the conversation. Right. Thanksgiving is the

453
00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:33,430
time to take an unbelievable vegan

454
00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:36,990
entree and have people say,

455
00:31:37,550 --> 00:31:40,550
gone, this is delicious. Like,

456
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:45,270
stuff a pumpkin and put an amazing mushroom gravy

457
00:31:45,770 --> 00:31:48,710
over it. It's beautiful. It's a centerpiece,

458
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:53,470
like, so you still feel like you have something that's festive in

459
00:31:53,970 --> 00:31:58,270
the middle of the table. Right. And it's

460
00:31:58,770 --> 00:32:02,230
at least as good as the turkey. I mean, meat itself,

461
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:05,760
you guys, doesn't have a lot of taste.

462
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,560
It's the sauce and the spices. It's the sauce and

463
00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:13,120
the spices and the gravy. So if I would say,

464
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:21,160
I would be inclined at this late stage to

465
00:32:21,660 --> 00:32:24,840
just let go of that expectation and to be prepared not to

466
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:28,640
have the Conversation and instead to take your delicious vegan entree.

467
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,530
Right. Not, I mean, tofurkey.

468
00:32:33,030 --> 00:32:38,450
Yeah, tofurkey tastes good. Yeah. But, you know, something that feels

469
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:42,970
the equivalent of that big old turkey that everybody

470
00:32:43,470 --> 00:32:45,690
wants to see in the middle of the table. Right.

471
00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:49,450
So maybe it's the time for food activism. Right.

472
00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:53,410
Instead of activism that could

473
00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:55,850
turn preachy or, you know,

474
00:32:56,910 --> 00:32:59,790
or make everybody uncomfortable. I like that. Well, I,

475
00:33:00,290 --> 00:33:02,830
I, I'll, I'll tell you, I don't.

476
00:33:05,470 --> 00:33:09,390
To me, holidays are sacrosanct. And if we are lucky enough to

477
00:33:09,630 --> 00:33:13,150
have a family or a friend

478
00:33:13,650 --> 00:33:16,350
group that we truly love. Right.

479
00:33:17,310 --> 00:33:20,830
Then you don't want to mess

480
00:33:21,330 --> 00:33:24,120
with that time. I don't. I personally,

481
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,600
I would be happy to be called on the carpet

482
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:32,040
for this, but I personally do not think holidays are when to

483
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,720
have to do, to quote, unquote, do activism.

484
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,480
To take our activist stance into the, into the

485
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:43,320
room. Other than passively by taking great,

486
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,400
great food and talking about it. If somebody

487
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,760
brings it up, you know, you're making

488
00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:55,800
an obvious statement by taking a beautiful

489
00:33:56,300 --> 00:33:59,800
pumpkin. Right? Yeah. I love that. I think,

490
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:04,960
you know, I also think this

491
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,680
position has come with time.

492
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,170
I didn't always feel

493
00:34:14,330 --> 00:34:18,490
this way, but I take a long

494
00:34:19,130 --> 00:34:22,970
view now. I take a long

495
00:34:23,470 --> 00:34:28,730
view and that's

496
00:34:29,230 --> 00:34:32,090
where I sit. And I know there are people who will go and they'll have

497
00:34:32,590 --> 00:34:36,810
the arguments, and I'm not sure what

498
00:34:37,310 --> 00:34:41,179
purpose that serves. I would encourage people to always

499
00:34:41,659 --> 00:34:44,779
be mindful of the end goal.

500
00:34:45,339 --> 00:34:48,939
That one turkey already had a horrible life,

501
00:34:49,579 --> 00:34:52,059
already had a horrible death. Right.

502
00:34:53,099 --> 00:34:56,938
Let your damn family eat the turkey. Don't preach now.

503
00:34:57,419 --> 00:35:01,499
Right? Preach, preach, preach before pre,

504
00:35:01,819 --> 00:35:04,939
Preach before, between Thanksgiving and Christmas,

505
00:35:06,619 --> 00:35:10,540
not at the Thanksgiving table. Right, Right. So look,

506
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,860
look for the opportunity to do something different.

507
00:35:14,620 --> 00:35:17,660
Yeah. And I, and I think that there's some people who,

508
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:21,980
you know, I, I, I tried talking to a lot of people around

509
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,340
this time, and I know it's a really depressing time for a lot of us

510
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,100
vegans. Like, you know, November, December. It just is because, you know, everything turns

511
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,820
to talking about turkey and how many pounds of the, you know.

512
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,650
Oh, my God. Nicole, can I tell you one thing? Yeah.

513
00:35:37,890 --> 00:35:41,290
I almost had to walk out. I was at the

514
00:35:41,790 --> 00:35:45,050
gym at a body pump class. It's just, it's just cardio and weight.

515
00:35:45,550 --> 00:35:48,770
It was just weight. It's weight training. It's a group weight training class.

516
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:53,610
And we were doing this, you know, everything is with a

517
00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:57,650
bar and weights at the end of the bar. And we were doing this

518
00:35:58,050 --> 00:36:01,330
tricep exercise that had us holding

519
00:36:01,940 --> 00:36:05,700
the bar behind our head on our

520
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,420
shoulders and then lifting. Okay, right. So that your

521
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,420
arms were parallel to your head. Yeah, right. And the

522
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,540
woman said. The instructor said, keep your arms close

523
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,860
to your head. Close, close, close to your head. She goes, think about how we

524
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,580
bind the turkey legs. Keep your legs that close like

525
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,670
we bind the turkey legs. And then between sets,

526
00:36:31,390 --> 00:36:35,230
she stopped and she started having this conversation.

527
00:36:35,390 --> 00:36:38,870
I've taken body pump for 20 years. I've never had

528
00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:42,830
an instructor stop the class and start to have a conversation

529
00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:46,950
about some random topic. And we started talking about turkeys

530
00:36:47,450 --> 00:36:50,790
and how many people who had already bought their turkey and how big and what

531
00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:55,640
they almost said. When she said,

532
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,560
how many people have already bought their turkey? I almost said,

533
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,240
how many people have bought their alternatives to turkey?

534
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,960
But I chose not to. And I still don't know. I almost

535
00:37:09,460 --> 00:37:13,240
walked out because it. I feel like I'm immune

536
00:37:13,740 --> 00:37:17,360
to things that people will say, but for some reason,

537
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:20,920
it was so unnecessary in that class.

538
00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:25,140
Yeah. That it was upsetting to me. I almost walked out. I didn't say

539
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,220
anything. I am questioning my decision not to say anything in that moment

540
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:33,700
because, anyway, yeah, you're right. All the talk

541
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,499
now is about. And. And I

542
00:37:37,999 --> 00:37:41,020
think we do have to choose, you know, choose our moments too, you know,

543
00:37:41,260 --> 00:37:44,300
a thousand. Right. So I think that.

544
00:37:45,660 --> 00:37:48,720
But yeah, that's. That's what we're all hearing. We're hearing,

545
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,520
you know, our siblings maybe talk about it. I don't have siblings.

546
00:37:53,020 --> 00:37:55,920
I'm lucky. And my mom has done a vegan Thanksgiving for the whole.

547
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,520
This will be my 16th vegan Thanksgiving. So my mom adjusted

548
00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:03,000
everything right away for me, so it was good. But I have no siblings.

549
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:06,800
Oh, bless her heart. That's. I have no siblings. So I said maybe

550
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:09,680
if I did that, she'd be like, bring your own crap, you know, But.

551
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,680
But I was luck. I'm lucky. And I know a lot of people aren't.

552
00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:17,020
And I know that some people get, you know, they get,

553
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:20,540
you know, teased or made fun of, you know, at the, at the table,

554
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,500
too. But I really. I really love everything you said,

555
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,420
you know, take the opportunity maybe to have to let the food do the talking

556
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:32,620
for the holiday. Food do talking.

557
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:35,900
Yeah. And. But then I think, you know,

558
00:38:36,060 --> 00:38:39,460
we're all going to live decades longer. Most of your listeners,

559
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,120
I'm sure, are going to live decades longer. Yeah. Just. It's.

560
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,600
Take the long view. I took a very long view

561
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,600
with my family and

562
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,560
am happy that there are now few

563
00:38:57,060 --> 00:39:00,720
vegans, a few vegetarians, and some who haven't shifted

564
00:39:01,220 --> 00:39:03,280
and will never shift. And I love them anyway.

565
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,160
You know, it's just, that's life. But you've got,

566
00:39:08,850 --> 00:39:12,530
you've got the rest of your lives to spend with the people you love.

567
00:39:12,610 --> 00:39:16,370
And if it is important to you to try

568
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:21,730
to shift them versus trying to using

569
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:25,650
your energy strategically, you know, is it

570
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:30,050
more important for you to try to shift your family versus

571
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:34,250
trying to influence people who might be

572
00:39:34,750 --> 00:39:38,220
more receptive? Right. That's for you to figure out. Yeah. And. But then

573
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:42,500
you've got a lifetime to work on to use your very best skills, whatever they

574
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,860
are. Right. Cooking, speaking, whatever they are. Yeah.

575
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:49,380
To do the greatest good possible with,

576
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,980
whether with your family and friends or whether out there in the world in some

577
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,940
other capacity and then bring your. Family to

578
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,180
a sanctuary and then bring. Okay,

579
00:40:00,260 --> 00:40:03,090
that's a no brainer. So the animals could do the, the.

580
00:40:03,590 --> 00:40:07,450
Work like that is a no brainer. Take your find out who,

581
00:40:07,950 --> 00:40:10,770
figure out wherever you are who you know.

582
00:40:11,650 --> 00:40:14,890
My caveat is there are plenty of not so great

583
00:40:15,390 --> 00:40:19,250
sanctuaries out there, but there are also plenty of remarkable ones.

584
00:40:19,810 --> 00:40:23,090
Find a good one, find one that is known for

585
00:40:23,170 --> 00:40:26,930
giving that engaging non

586
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:31,500
judgmental tour. Right. And you

587
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,740
will have, even if it's only that

588
00:40:35,820 --> 00:40:39,820
seeds have been planted. Right. Those seeds will stay

589
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,900
there and you will have the beginning of something very important.

590
00:40:44,139 --> 00:40:47,300
Yeah. If it's a sanctuary modeled like cas,

591
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,940
it's going to be one with education, you know, built in.

592
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:54,420
And then, you know, it's hard for people to

593
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,330
not have connection with at least one of those animals. You know,

594
00:40:58,830 --> 00:41:02,130
it's not a, it's not a zoo, you know, it's not a zoo.

595
00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:05,930
I think what's harder I. It's not a zoo at all. Right.

596
00:41:06,430 --> 00:41:09,410
Yeah. And I think people, you know, and I use that, you know, we know

597
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:12,330
zoos are horrible. I want to make sure I say that. But I think sometimes

598
00:41:12,830 --> 00:41:16,410
people think that they're going and they're just going to like look at a horse

599
00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:20,050
in that enclosure and look at a cow in that enclosure. But that up close

600
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:22,810
personal go in connection.

601
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,880
Be kissed, be loved on, be, you know, have a sheep,

602
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,200
you know, burrow. Oh my goodness. We have lapsed sheep too.

603
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:35,080
But yeah. One thing that is

604
00:41:35,580 --> 00:41:39,360
hard for many sanctuaries in New York is

605
00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:43,560
it with the rise of avian flu. Yes. Which is, which is spread

606
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,800
from the poop of and saliva

607
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:52,080
of migrating birds. Many of us

608
00:41:52,580 --> 00:41:56,480
out of an abundance of caution have limited public

609
00:41:56,980 --> 00:42:00,080
contact with our birds. And it is so,

610
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,400
so. And it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking for humans

611
00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:09,440
because you don't have that experience that's often truly transformational.

612
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,280
But the birds, the birds, turkeys crave

613
00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:19,150
human attention. They crave it if they're in a

614
00:42:19,650 --> 00:42:26,150
place now, mind you, they're all individuals. And you

615
00:42:26,650 --> 00:42:30,030
said at the beginning of our recording, you said something

616
00:42:30,530 --> 00:42:33,550
about all animals love us unconditionally.

617
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:37,790
That has not been our experience. Some animals,

618
00:42:37,950 --> 00:42:41,710
some animals don't. You've got Mr. You've got Mr. Cranky Pants.

619
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,480
Yeah. Every now and then. Right. And you've got,

620
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,320
you've got every now and then the one who really is

621
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,520
just a loner. Right. Yeah.

622
00:42:54,020 --> 00:42:58,240
Just like us. Just like us. But for the most part they

623
00:42:58,740 --> 00:43:03,200
do, they love. And it's. It's been so

624
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:08,340
sad that the turkeys in particular can't

625
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,740
have that engagement that they love so much. Yeah, that is sad.

626
00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:16,900
Yeah. And there's a lot of. And speaking about the avian flu,

627
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:23,060
there's a lot of birds in the factory farm industry

628
00:43:24,740 --> 00:43:27,860
that are being killed because of this like whole.

629
00:43:28,580 --> 00:43:31,460
Oh, oh, yeah. By the thousand.

630
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:34,860
Yes. And that's been happening and I believe I just saw

631
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,320
a headline the other day that. That still happened. That's still happening. Yeah, it's still

632
00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:42,120
happening and it's still. And you know, there's been a whole

633
00:43:42,620 --> 00:43:45,840
history which, which, you know, the. These things

634
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,080
don't make the news.

635
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,880
Mainstream news, that's for sure. But there's been a long,

636
00:43:54,380 --> 00:43:58,480
long history of. The word is called culling, but it just means mass

637
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,360
slaughter of all kinds of animals. More frequently

638
00:44:02,860 --> 00:44:07,930
birds, often for reasons none, none other than a

639
00:44:08,430 --> 00:44:10,530
farm needs to downsize.

640
00:44:11,410 --> 00:44:14,690
And so they just gas, they just gas

641
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:18,930
their birds or they turn up the heat or every now. Or they macerate them

642
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:22,729
or they. I've even. I even know that

643
00:44:23,229 --> 00:44:26,850
there have been times when they've just been thrown by the thousands into dumpsters and

644
00:44:27,350 --> 00:44:31,210
crushed. It's just, just what we do in

645
00:44:31,710 --> 00:44:35,120
a world where humans, too many of

646
00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:38,600
us, act like we're the only ones who matter. Right.

647
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:44,080
With horrifying consequences for every

648
00:44:44,580 --> 00:44:48,120
other species. I'm actually working on a children's book that I started

649
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,480
years and years and years ago. Older kids.

650
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,360
And the book is set at the sanctuary,

651
00:44:59,430 --> 00:45:03,150
but it's fiction. Unlike the other books, it's fiction and it

652
00:45:03,650 --> 00:45:06,910
tells the story of an 11 year old girl, maybe nine,

653
00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:10,990
I can't decide how old she is yet, but who goes

654
00:45:11,490 --> 00:45:16,710
into the barn one night and finds her favorite little piglet shivering.

655
00:45:17,350 --> 00:45:23,870
And so she goes into the hay room to

656
00:45:24,370 --> 00:45:27,230
get the warmest bale of straw,

657
00:45:27,710 --> 00:45:31,710
which happens to be. In order to advance the plot all.

658
00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:35,310
All the way at the top. I call it Hay Mountain of Hay Mountain,

659
00:45:35,810 --> 00:45:39,150
which is, you know, bales deep, bales high.

660
00:45:39,470 --> 00:45:42,750
So she climbs up and she

661
00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:45,710
falls into a crack between the bales, and she's stuck.

662
00:45:46,190 --> 00:45:49,470
And all of a sudden, she hears Rambo's voice. Well,

663
00:45:49,970 --> 00:45:53,590
Rambo was a sheep who changed my

664
00:45:54,090 --> 00:45:57,970
life, whose story is told in my first book. And she hears Rambo

665
00:45:58,470 --> 00:46:02,210
speaking to the animals and gathering them together in

666
00:46:02,710 --> 00:46:06,970
an effort to save. To save Abby,

667
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:10,250
to save the little girl. And they do.

668
00:46:11,530 --> 00:46:14,010
But then she learns their secret.

669
00:46:15,210 --> 00:46:17,690
And the secret is that animals can talk.

670
00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:22,050
That they always have. That they have from

671
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:27,190
the beginning of time, but they have to guard that secret, secret from

672
00:46:27,690 --> 00:46:31,310
humanity because it would be used against them. And I

673
00:46:31,810 --> 00:46:35,310
don't know what on earth. Whether it has to do with what we were talking

674
00:46:35,810 --> 00:46:39,470
about earlier. Hey, I'm happy to hear about this. I do know. I do know.

675
00:46:39,970 --> 00:46:42,030
Yes. It's like, how do you.

676
00:46:44,510 --> 00:46:47,710
I want to explain in an

677
00:46:47,790 --> 00:46:50,110
age appropriate way.

678
00:46:51,660 --> 00:46:55,900
In this book, I want to have the animals telling the little girl

679
00:46:56,780 --> 00:47:01,260
what. What animals

680
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,500
endure at human hands. Yeah. And so I have a

681
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,580
horse talking about what he went through and a pig talking about how she barely

682
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,780
escaped and blah, blah, blah. But it's hard to know how

683
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,680
much and when with children.

684
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,440
Yeah. You know, you can. And. And even, you know,

685
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,800
a lot of adults turn away from the truth.

686
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,600
A lot of adults turn away on tours from the tree,

687
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:34,840
from the truth, as. No matter how you frame it.

688
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,240
So it's just our job, I think, as activists,

689
00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:42,600
is to, quote, unquote, read the room.

690
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:48,970
Yeah, to read the room. And to work

691
00:47:49,050 --> 00:47:53,210
hard at adapting how we

692
00:47:53,710 --> 00:47:57,290
say, what we say, when we say,

693
00:47:57,850 --> 00:47:59,930
to whom, we say, say it,

694
00:48:00,570 --> 00:48:03,290
all those things. Because our job,

695
00:48:04,810 --> 00:48:08,610
you know, is to change

696
00:48:09,110 --> 00:48:12,340
behavior, and it's not a one size fits all approach.

697
00:48:12,980 --> 00:48:15,460
Yeah, I agree.

698
00:48:16,580 --> 00:48:20,220
Yeah. And I think we need to realize that more. I think we

699
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,260
get angry, and that's why we

700
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,620
have to remember to lead with love, because I think that.

701
00:48:28,820 --> 00:48:31,620
But, Nicole, can I tell you something? I don't.

702
00:48:32,580 --> 00:48:35,460
I have never understood stood.

703
00:48:36,980 --> 00:48:40,660
Why we get. I get. I don't get angry. I get.

704
00:48:40,740 --> 00:48:43,780
I get sad. I get. When I

705
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,740
think of the suffering. Right. I don't get angry at the people who

706
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:51,899
ate animals because I. I did. Right. Because everybody

707
00:48:52,399 --> 00:48:55,820
does. All of us did. Right. Unless you're born vegan, which there's some coming

708
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,380
up now, but I feel like. There are a handful. Yes,

709
00:48:59,940 --> 00:49:04,460
we Had a young man work for us who had never eaten

710
00:49:04,940 --> 00:49:07,980
an egg. Oh, that's awesome. That's great.

711
00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:11,340
And he said. He said. And I asked him a question.

712
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,980
I don't remember what the question was, but I remember his response. He said,

713
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:21,180
it's just not food. I love that. He literally said

714
00:49:21,340 --> 00:49:24,980
it's not food. In the same way that, you know,

715
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,300
if we went to some foreign country and they were eating dogs.

716
00:49:28,460 --> 00:49:32,190
Right, right, right. So I

717
00:49:32,690 --> 00:49:35,990
thought that was interesting. That is interesting. Oh, your pup just woke up.

718
00:49:36,070 --> 00:49:39,350
Oh, he did? He. Yeah. What's his name? Jake.

719
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:43,150
Jake, what are you doing, buddy? He's shaking his ears and

720
00:49:43,650 --> 00:49:46,350
doing a little stretch. He'll probably jump up on me now, but he's too big

721
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:49,950
to be on my lap right now, but. So what

722
00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:54,030
do you think the biggest challenge is right now for the vegan movement, since we're

723
00:49:54,530 --> 00:49:58,510
talking about all of that? He almost took my headphones off. The biggest challenge

724
00:49:59,630 --> 00:50:02,190
for the vegan movement. Right now, I think.

725
00:50:02,750 --> 00:50:05,990
Well, I think there are two things, and I think

726
00:50:06,490 --> 00:50:10,270
they're related. And I love that you asked that question. I think

727
00:50:10,770 --> 00:50:14,110
it's harder to get

728
00:50:15,070 --> 00:50:18,550
the public's attention than

729
00:50:19,050 --> 00:50:23,400
it has ever been. And that is in

730
00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:27,120
large part, you know, you've got this. All these things

731
00:50:27,620 --> 00:50:30,920
coalescing. You've got the terror of

732
00:50:31,420 --> 00:50:34,880
climate change and how so many people's lives are being uprooted.

733
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,360
You've got diabolical

734
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,400
administration whose behaviors and policies

735
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,560
are threatening almost anybody paying

736
00:50:49,060 --> 00:50:51,790
attention except the true elites.

737
00:50:53,470 --> 00:50:57,630
And it's harder to get

738
00:50:58,430 --> 00:51:01,870
media to cover us the

739
00:51:02,370 --> 00:51:05,470
way they used to. I think that is a huge issue.

740
00:51:06,430 --> 00:51:10,070
Huge issue. And related to that is.

741
00:51:10,570 --> 00:51:14,350
Is the bigger question, really, of how to get

742
00:51:14,850 --> 00:51:17,110
in front of everyone.

743
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:22,790
Right. When you don't have media coverage,

744
00:51:22,870 --> 00:51:26,310
you can't take people by the millions to sanctuaries.

745
00:51:26,950 --> 00:51:30,750
People aren't. There isn't enough growth in the

746
00:51:31,250 --> 00:51:34,790
vegan food market. And for the most part, it's still. When you go into

747
00:51:35,290 --> 00:51:39,110
a grocery store, you've got the section, the one

748
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:42,490
small area where you've got the vegan.

749
00:51:42,990 --> 00:51:46,610
Everything. Yeah. It's not like all the foods are interspersed.

750
00:51:47,110 --> 00:51:50,050
So when somebody sees hamburger,

751
00:51:50,210 --> 00:51:54,210
they also see. Right. Not hamburger.

752
00:51:54,370 --> 00:51:57,570
Right, Right. Right next to it. Yeah. Or even

753
00:51:58,070 --> 00:52:01,730
vegan cheeses. There's, you know, why aren't they just interspersed with.

754
00:52:03,730 --> 00:52:07,410
So I think separated. Yeah. The problem is the

755
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:09,330
same as it has always been,

756
00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:15,220
which is, if we want, you know, you think about this, and I've always said

757
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:20,020
this is the biggest social movement of all time, because you're not asking straight

758
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,540
people not to be homophobic, you're not asking white people not to

759
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,540
be racist, you're not asking and not to be sexist.

760
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,060
You're asking every single human being alive, right?

761
00:52:33,420 --> 00:52:37,100
Everybody to change their

762
00:52:37,180 --> 00:52:40,660
understanding of animals and who

763
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:45,420
they are to, to let in the,

764
00:52:46,460 --> 00:52:50,260
the implications of our choice to eat

765
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,540
animals on basically everything

766
00:52:54,860 --> 00:52:58,180
wrong with the environment, right? Water pollution,

767
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,540
air pollution, species extinction, topsoil,

768
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,700
erosion, all of it. Climate change, right?

769
00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:11,290
And then you're asking them to change their

770
00:53:11,790 --> 00:53:15,810
behavior. So what we're doing

771
00:53:17,250 --> 00:53:20,370
isn't moving the needle, right?

772
00:53:20,850 --> 00:53:24,170
It's moving the needle on the micro level a

773
00:53:24,670 --> 00:53:29,690
hundred thousand million billion percent. But we're

774
00:53:30,190 --> 00:53:33,490
not creating vegans by the millions,

775
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:37,910
right? And so how do

776
00:53:38,410 --> 00:53:41,910
we do that? And you know what we haven't touched on because we come from

777
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:45,350
at this, from an animal first position, but the equally

778
00:53:45,850 --> 00:53:48,950
compelling argument for people like my sister,

779
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:53,150
who will, whom I adore, but who would

780
00:53:53,650 --> 00:53:56,870
never do this for the animals, you know,

781
00:53:57,370 --> 00:54:01,560
she loves her dog, but doesn't go a lot beyond

782
00:54:02,060 --> 00:54:05,920
that. How do you help

783
00:54:06,420 --> 00:54:10,200
people in addition to the animals, right, understand what's

784
00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:14,880
going on with the environment and let in what it's doing

785
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,480
for human health or against human health.

786
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,160
And so I don't know how to. And I

787
00:54:23,660 --> 00:54:27,450
do know there's not enough cross pollination.

788
00:54:27,690 --> 00:54:31,570
There's not enough conversation between the people who

789
00:54:32,070 --> 00:54:35,130
are trying to move the food space and people who are trying to do it

790
00:54:35,630 --> 00:54:38,970
from the animal space and people who are trying to do it from an environmental

791
00:54:39,470 --> 00:54:43,290
space. There's not nearly enough, not nearly enough cross pollination.

792
00:54:43,770 --> 00:54:47,770
So when you combine the fact that

793
00:54:48,490 --> 00:54:52,050
it's harder for our stories to be

794
00:54:52,550 --> 00:54:55,830
covered because the media sort of bouncing

795
00:54:56,330 --> 00:55:00,510
from one calamity to the next, and they're not, when they're

796
00:55:01,010 --> 00:55:04,230
talking about climate change, nobody backs up and says,

797
00:55:04,730 --> 00:55:10,030
well, wait a minute, one of the main reasons we are here is

798
00:55:10,530 --> 00:55:14,550
because we are growing billions

799
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:18,150
of animals and decimating the planet because

800
00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:20,790
it takes so much land, right,

801
00:55:21,590 --> 00:55:25,350
and water and energy, so many resources

802
00:55:25,830 --> 00:55:28,710
to feed them. Like we're not. We're not.

803
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:34,150
I don't know, to answer your question, I don't know how to

804
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:39,190
do that work. I think so many organizations are

805
00:55:39,690 --> 00:55:43,430
doing a great job on

806
00:55:43,930 --> 00:55:46,880
the micro level, including yours,

807
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,960
including cas and all the other farm sanctuaries.

808
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,760
But, and that's important because on

809
00:55:55,260 --> 00:55:58,000
the individual level, that's where change happens.

810
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,200
But you've got to have big corresponding

811
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,120
policy change, right? And I don't know,

812
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,320
I don't really know how we,

813
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,480
how we do that. Yeah. This day and age.

814
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,840
And I think that this. This. I'm sorry, did you.

815
00:56:21,340 --> 00:56:24,560
No, go ahead. Oh. I think this social justice movement, I think you're right.

816
00:56:25,060 --> 00:56:28,800
It is the biggest. But I also think it's different than others because

817
00:56:29,300 --> 00:56:32,960
we're not the oppressed. We're fighting for collectively.

818
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,480
We're all fighting for the animals or the environment, you know,

819
00:56:36,980 --> 00:56:40,490
or personal health. But I'll just take the animal part, you know, since that's

820
00:56:40,990 --> 00:56:44,530
what you and I do. We're not the oppressed party. I guess

821
00:56:45,030 --> 00:56:47,570
the animals are. So we're, you know,

822
00:56:48,130 --> 00:56:51,810
out there for them, and I think it does make a difference, and maybe that's

823
00:56:52,310 --> 00:56:56,049
why there's so many. There's not like a unified kind of

824
00:56:57,570 --> 00:57:01,730
front. You know, I think. I feel like before COVID we had more momentum,

825
00:57:02,230 --> 00:57:05,810
like 20, 17, 18, 19. I feel like the movement had a lot of momentum,

826
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,320
and I agree that. Took the wind out of a

827
00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:12,480
lot of things, and it surely did. I mean,

828
00:57:12,980 --> 00:57:16,200
sanctuaries, so many nonprofits were struggling to survive.

829
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:20,320
So, like sanctuaries, for example, you know, we had to shut down

830
00:57:20,820 --> 00:57:24,360
visitor, our visitation. We had to shut down our overnight accommodations.

831
00:57:24,860 --> 00:57:28,120
We couldn't. We couldn't go out doing our public speaking.

832
00:57:28,620 --> 00:57:34,830
So, yeah, I do think the momentum shifted, and now we're

833
00:57:35,330 --> 00:57:38,470
still kind of regrouping. Yeah. And I. And. And I've heard you

834
00:57:38,970 --> 00:57:42,830
speak about sanctuaries, how they're really struggling right now with

835
00:57:43,150 --> 00:57:47,390
donations being low. Most of them are at capacity

836
00:57:48,830 --> 00:57:51,750
where they can't take in any more rescues.

837
00:57:52,250 --> 00:57:55,750
I find that a lot. I think some sanctuaries, you know,

838
00:57:56,250 --> 00:57:58,670
they can't. They can take in more animals than they do, and they can,

839
00:57:59,170 --> 00:58:01,990
but I think it's. It's a lot, and I think they're kind of struggling.

840
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:08,870
Is that true? I think it's fair to say sanctuaries

841
00:58:09,370 --> 00:58:13,630
are struggling in many

842
00:58:14,130 --> 00:58:14,230
ways.

843
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:20,590
Funding has not kept pace at all with

844
00:58:21,090 --> 00:58:25,510
the growth of sanctuaries. There's still new sanctuaries popping up all

845
00:58:26,010 --> 00:58:28,870
over the place, but funding has certainly not kept pace.

846
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:35,280
The influence of a movement called effective altruism, which dissuaded

847
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:40,680
bigger donors from giving to sanctuaries, has been pretty dramatic.

848
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,320
They're all kind, and I. But I also think that

849
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,600
sanctuaries are struggling with messaging.

850
00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:52,920
I think there's a broad. Like, even in the food space,

851
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:57,290
there's a broad. Yeah. Recognition that

852
00:58:57,790 --> 00:59:01,930
what we have been doing isn't working to the extent

853
00:59:02,430 --> 00:59:06,930
that we would like it to. I am proud that CAS

854
00:59:08,130 --> 00:59:12,290
changes hearts and minds and behavior, and I know, you are proud

855
00:59:13,010 --> 00:59:16,290
of the work that horse racing wrongs has done, and,

856
00:59:16,790 --> 00:59:21,490
you know, the number of racetracks around the country has diminished dramatically,

857
00:59:23,230 --> 00:59:27,070
but we want change now. Right.

858
00:59:27,790 --> 00:59:31,870
And so, you know, it's hard as

859
00:59:32,370 --> 00:59:36,190
a sanctuary when you are so immersed.

860
00:59:36,690 --> 00:59:40,510
It's, it's, it's incredibly intense work

861
00:59:40,750 --> 00:59:44,510
when you're dealing with hundreds of beings and trying to,

862
00:59:45,070 --> 00:59:48,750
to individualize your care in order to maximize

863
00:59:49,250 --> 00:59:53,400
their happiness. And you've got emergency

864
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:57,680
and you've got loss and your major funder passes

865
00:59:58,180 --> 01:00:02,360
away or, you know, any, any of the stuff that just happens

866
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,960
on. It's difficult to

867
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,640
step back. Yeah.

868
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,840
But necessary to step back. You know, we,

869
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,100
after 25 years, retired and two

870
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,980
new folks have come in to CAS and

871
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,660
they are doing the very important work of pausing

872
01:00:29,100 --> 01:00:32,899
and having those strategic conversations to say,

873
01:00:33,399 --> 01:00:37,180
okay, where are we now? This is who we've been for 25

874
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,620
years. But where is the movement now?

875
01:00:40,940 --> 01:00:44,810
Where's the sanctuary now? Where, where can we,

876
01:00:45,610 --> 01:00:49,130
you know, I think one thing that every organization

877
01:00:49,530 --> 01:00:53,450
working on behalf of animals needs to ask all the

878
01:00:53,950 --> 01:00:57,050
time is, what's our special sauce?

879
01:00:57,530 --> 01:01:01,210
Yeah. What do we do the very best?

880
01:01:01,530 --> 01:01:05,370
And how do we, in this new climate. In this

881
01:01:05,870 --> 01:01:08,810
new climate, this, with all this noise. Yeah.

882
01:01:09,780 --> 01:01:13,780
Identify those strengths and utilize them

883
01:01:14,180 --> 01:01:17,700
to their utmost for the betterment of animals and

884
01:01:17,780 --> 01:01:21,020
not try to do, you know, get a little,

885
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,019
have a little discipline, narrow your focus, do what you do

886
01:01:25,519 --> 01:01:29,780
well. So, yeah, it's huge and it's ongoing and

887
01:01:30,420 --> 01:01:33,980
it is a moment of enormous challenge.

888
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,810
But as is true in life, with challenge always comes

889
01:01:38,310 --> 01:01:41,450
opportunity. Right. So where are those opportunities?

890
01:01:42,490 --> 01:01:46,050
And you know, I, I something I really love about you.

891
01:01:46,550 --> 01:01:49,850
I love so many things about you, but that you seem like you are just.

892
01:01:50,350 --> 01:01:52,730
Oh, Jake just jumped up. Hey, buddy.

893
01:01:54,570 --> 01:01:58,250
Is you're an optimist. I feel like you are,

894
01:01:58,750 --> 01:02:01,050
you're always. I've never seen you not being positive,

895
01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:05,900
not without a smile on your face, and not with just hope and

896
01:02:06,140 --> 01:02:10,020
love, you know, And I think that's wonderful. And I,

897
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,860
I, I really try to do that every day because I think that we do,

898
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,739
we need, we need that. We needed to charge ourselves up.

899
01:02:19,580 --> 01:02:22,460
So I have Rambo written down.

900
01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:26,700
So if anyone had a question of

901
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,620
animal sentience, they just need to listen to one Rambo story.

902
01:02:31,180 --> 01:02:34,300
You can tell 10 if you want. But I can tell 10.

903
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,900
But I'll tell 1. Tell one or however many you want, but please talk about

904
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,220
Rambo. I will tell the one that changed

905
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,940
my life, okay? It changed everything for me. It changed everything,

906
01:02:47,100 --> 01:02:51,140
and consequently, it Changed Catskill

907
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,680
Animal Sanctuary. So Rambo was a

908
01:02:56,180 --> 01:03:00,440
stunning Jacob sheep with massive

909
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,560
horns. They were at the base of his head. They were probably 4

910
01:03:06,060 --> 01:03:09,680
inches across and they curled back behind

911
01:03:10,180 --> 01:03:14,440
his ears and then kind of crisscrossed in front of his face. They were magnificent.

912
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,640
And he was black and white. A Jacob sheep. And he

913
01:03:19,140 --> 01:03:22,360
was one of 17 animals rescued the year we opened from a

914
01:03:22,860 --> 01:03:26,130
local animal hoarder. 17 animals locked

915
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:30,930
in a 12 by 12 stall. One of them was a massive Holstein steer.

916
01:03:32,370 --> 01:03:36,210
There was a dead calf. Sorry, a dead cow.

917
01:03:36,370 --> 01:03:40,449
Not calf. Decomposing in the stalls.

918
01:03:40,949 --> 01:03:43,330
Horror. The woman had had decades of,

919
01:03:45,090 --> 01:03:49,850
you know, slap on the wrist convictions for hoarding

920
01:03:50,350 --> 01:03:53,480
and the accompanying abuse. Took the

921
01:03:53,980 --> 01:03:57,760
animals. She would not surrender them. So we couldn't neuter

922
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,960
Rambo. He was the only male sheep. There were goat, sheep, goats and

923
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:06,240
this giant steer named Samson.

924
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,240
We couldn't neuter him, which was frustrating because it meant

925
01:04:11,740 --> 01:04:15,080
we had to isolate him. Because you can't. On a

926
01:04:15,580 --> 01:04:18,970
sanctuary, you can't intentionally create more animals. Right?

927
01:04:21,370 --> 01:04:24,810
So we had him in a stall and

928
01:04:25,050 --> 01:04:29,210
because at the time, we had. Keep in mind, we had just gotten started and

929
01:04:29,710 --> 01:04:33,410
we didn't have enough pasture space for one single animal to

930
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:37,610
occupy. So we had him in a stall and he was

931
01:04:38,010 --> 01:04:41,690
fricking frustrated. Like we had taken him from a stall

932
01:04:41,770 --> 01:04:45,380
and put him back at a stall. And so even though

933
01:04:45,620 --> 01:04:48,860
it was bigger and he had more space because there weren't 16

934
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:53,220
other animals in there, he was frustrated. And so he would come at us with

935
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,260
these giant horns and boom, just beat us up.

936
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,060
It was awful. One day we just

937
01:05:01,300 --> 01:05:05,100
decided to take a risk and let

938
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,700
him be free. After, you know,

939
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,630
weeks of knowing he didn't have anything contagious and weeks of

940
01:05:13,130 --> 01:05:17,150
him being just so frustrated because he was confined, because we

941
01:05:17,870 --> 01:05:22,550
gambled we'd never seen predators. We gambled

942
01:05:23,050 --> 01:05:26,790
that if anybody did venture all the way out of the woods, all the

943
01:05:27,290 --> 01:05:31,070
way down this open lane, open, very exposed lane

944
01:05:31,630 --> 01:05:35,510
into the barn, that he would give them a

945
01:05:36,010 --> 01:05:38,750
run for their money. Plus. But bottom line is we just didn't think it would

946
01:05:39,250 --> 01:05:42,310
happen because it's not like we're. There are plenty of woods, but we're not.

947
01:05:42,810 --> 01:05:46,950
The barn is way away from. So they would have been. The predators themselves

948
01:05:47,450 --> 01:05:49,510
would have been very vulnerable coming into that kind of space.

949
01:05:50,550 --> 01:05:54,110
So we let them out and we

950
01:05:54,610 --> 01:05:57,950
put two beds at opposite ends of our very long Barn.

951
01:05:58,450 --> 01:06:02,310
It's about 150ft long. A row of 10 stalls

952
01:06:03,110 --> 01:06:06,780
on one on the left or 10 stalls on the right, and a

953
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,740
16 or 20 foot aisle in the middle, big fluffy

954
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:15,260
bed. And all that frustration

955
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,220
and anger just went away.

956
01:06:19,100 --> 01:06:24,300
It just went away. And Rambo started to wander

957
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:28,500
the grounds. And I

958
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:33,250
didn't understand then that

959
01:06:33,750 --> 01:06:37,330
he was being a guard sheep. He was looking to make

960
01:06:37,830 --> 01:06:41,530
sure everything was okay with

961
01:06:42,030 --> 01:06:45,170
all the species. When I did know, it was

962
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:48,770
one night in November when I went in to

963
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:52,850
check the animals the way I did every single night. And Rambo was

964
01:06:53,350 --> 01:06:56,570
lying on the far bed, so he was probably about a hundred,

965
01:06:56,730 --> 01:07:00,070
at least 100ft away from me. And I went

966
01:07:00,570 --> 01:07:04,110
from stall to stall to stall. And for a reason

967
01:07:04,610 --> 01:07:08,070
that I still don't understand. The stall where we had two

968
01:07:08,570 --> 01:07:11,870
turkeys, this was long before we had built our turkey barn or

969
01:07:12,370 --> 01:07:14,630
many of our other barns. We kind of just had this one main barn.

970
01:07:16,230 --> 01:07:20,070
The door was open, and the two turkeys who stayed in

971
01:07:20,570 --> 01:07:23,990
there at night weren't in there. I didn't register that.

972
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,120
I didn't register that. So I kept checking,

973
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,240
kept checking. This cow was okay, these goats were okay,

974
01:07:32,740 --> 01:07:35,160
this horse was okay. I made the U turn at the end of the barn,

975
01:07:35,660 --> 01:07:39,280
walked back to my original spot where I'd entered, and I called, good night,

976
01:07:39,780 --> 01:07:43,240
animals. Rambo stood up. We had never

977
01:07:43,740 --> 01:07:46,600
heard his voice, by the way, before this moment.

978
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:50,520
Rambo stood up. He walked all the way down to me.

979
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,600
He looked up and he went, bah.

980
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,360
So I said,

981
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,200
show me what's wrong, because that was all he

982
01:08:04,700 --> 01:08:07,440
could be doing. He was trying to tell me something.

983
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,800
That animal, who had never

984
01:08:13,300 --> 01:08:15,520
known a moment's kindness before, he came to us,

985
01:08:16,730 --> 01:08:18,650
walked six stalls down,

986
01:08:20,330 --> 01:08:23,290
walked into the empty turkey stall,

987
01:08:24,570 --> 01:08:27,450
turned around and looked at me.

988
01:08:29,770 --> 01:08:33,610
He knew the animals were out on a sleeting November

989
01:08:34,110 --> 01:08:38,250
night. He figured out a way to

990
01:08:38,750 --> 01:08:41,930
tell a human being. He knew

991
01:08:42,349 --> 01:08:45,549
that the human being would help the animals,

992
01:08:46,429 --> 01:08:50,389
which made me understand, oh, he knows

993
01:08:50,889 --> 01:08:54,069
what we're about. And the thing that

994
01:08:54,569 --> 01:08:57,309
blew me away was that he cared.

995
01:08:58,909 --> 01:09:02,709
He had empathy for two little

996
01:09:03,209 --> 01:09:06,949
cold birds out in the sleep on a November night having a

997
01:09:07,449 --> 01:09:12,640
pretty amazing night. And so

998
01:09:13,140 --> 01:09:16,760
I, you know, I ran out. I. I toweled them

999
01:09:17,260 --> 01:09:20,520
off, dried them off, warm them up, put them in the stall,

1000
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,919
and then just sat there. And that moment, as you

1001
01:09:24,419 --> 01:09:28,360
can imagine, helped me understand that

1002
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,450
the limitations that we perceive animals as

1003
01:09:34,950 --> 01:09:38,450
having is based on a lack in us,

1004
01:09:39,650 --> 01:09:42,530
not a lack in them.

1005
01:09:44,450 --> 01:09:47,890
And that moment invited

1006
01:09:48,210 --> 01:09:51,490
us to pay a different kind

1007
01:09:51,990 --> 01:09:56,010
of attention to animals. And once

1008
01:09:56,510 --> 01:09:59,980
you pay that kind of attention,

1009
01:10:01,260 --> 01:10:04,140
they get it. Like Rambo,

1010
01:10:04,220 --> 01:10:08,420
that moment changed our relationship because from that moment

1011
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,820
on, he and I, for the 12 and a half years that he was with

1012
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:16,580
us were a team. He was, he was completely free,

1013
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,858
a free roaming animal 24, 7,

1014
01:10:20,048 --> 01:10:23,140
365 days a year. So when the cows got out

1015
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,530
at night, Rambo came to my bedroom,

1016
01:10:31,330 --> 01:10:34,370
You know, and there are a dozen stories in there in my first book,

1017
01:10:34,870 --> 01:10:37,650
mostly in my first book, where the Blind Horse Sings, which people can get.

1018
01:10:38,150 --> 01:10:42,130
But I'll put everything in the show notes so people can read these fantastic

1019
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:46,050
books. I have them all on my bookshelf over here. Oh,

1020
01:10:46,370 --> 01:10:49,410
he, he was something.

1021
01:10:49,890 --> 01:10:53,240
And did he, was he unusually bright?

1022
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:57,240
A thousand percent. But did that moment teach

1023
01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:01,880
me, and consequently us, that they have infinitely

1024
01:11:02,380 --> 01:11:06,160
more capacity than most of us ever know? Heck yeah. And it

1025
01:11:06,660 --> 01:11:11,640
informed every practice that we have at Catskill Animal Sanctuary, including the.

1026
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,480
Not always. No, not always. Such an

1027
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:20,250
efficient practice. The practice of the underfoot family. We have a

1028
01:11:20,750 --> 01:11:24,290
ridiculous number of free roaming animals, which is fun for them

1029
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:28,050
and hilarious and fun for us, but not always practical. When a

1030
01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:31,490
pig, you know, when it's dinner time and a pig is, you know, rooting around

1031
01:11:31,650 --> 01:11:35,010
at the, at the far end of the, of the sanctuary or what

1032
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:39,490
have you. But that's just, that's so fantastic. And that's

1033
01:11:39,990 --> 01:11:43,890
just a. It's one of the most wonderful stories that you could

1034
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:47,900
tell and it's, it's. I don't

1035
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,780
know, I'm speechless. I have tears in my eyes. And thank you so much for

1036
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,580
sharing that and for being here. Is there anything else you'd like to share?

1037
01:11:56,080 --> 01:12:00,300
Anything you have coming up or anything CAS has coming up that

1038
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:04,140
you want people to check out? Yes, cas well, I'm doing some interesting work

1039
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,540
sort of behind the scenes, which we can't yet talk about, but,

1040
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:12,030
but an initiative that people will learn about at some point to

1041
01:12:14,670 --> 01:12:18,310
grow and strengthen the sanctuary movement. So I'm excited about that.

1042
01:12:18,810 --> 01:12:22,470
That's great. DAS is having our

1043
01:12:22,970 --> 01:12:26,590
annual December event called Carols with the Cows.

1044
01:12:27,070 --> 01:12:31,550
And it's. If you've. Most people have not been, of course, it's so fun

1045
01:12:31,710 --> 01:12:35,390
and quirky. We have a wonderful communications

1046
01:12:36,110 --> 01:12:39,790
person named Cameron who has taken

1047
01:12:39,870 --> 01:12:43,590
some of the most popular Christmas carols and made

1048
01:12:44,090 --> 01:12:47,950
them about the animals. She's a wonderful writer. It's very, it's sweet and

1049
01:12:48,450 --> 01:12:52,190
funny and endearing and so people come for their hot chocolate and

1050
01:12:52,510 --> 01:12:56,590
cookies and, you know, Christmas treats and

1051
01:12:57,090 --> 01:13:00,990
then we go into the fields with the animals to sing their particular carol.

1052
01:13:01,490 --> 01:13:03,830
It's a great event. Oh, I love that. I'm going to be there. It'll be

1053
01:13:04,330 --> 01:13:08,150
fun. Oh, I Love that. Other than that, it's like they are hunkering

1054
01:13:08,650 --> 01:13:12,510
down for strategic planning. So it's not that exciting, but it's critically,

1055
01:13:13,010 --> 01:13:16,870
critically, critically important. And I'm so proud of them for doing it. And this is

1056
01:13:17,370 --> 01:13:21,190
a great opportunity because you're closed for tours right? Until the

1057
01:13:21,690 --> 01:13:25,190
spring. Yes, I think. Right. So this is an opportunity to see those animals one

1058
01:13:25,690 --> 01:13:29,190
more time, if you could. Yes. I mean, we're open for private tours. You can

1059
01:13:29,690 --> 01:13:32,770
always book a private tour. But in terms of public tours that are open on

1060
01:13:33,270 --> 01:13:36,970
weekends. Yeah, we shut down for the winter. So year round you have private

1061
01:13:37,470 --> 01:13:40,370
tours year round? Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah, it's good to know

1062
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:44,130
you can go online and do that. Oh, that's good to know. To sign off,

1063
01:13:44,210 --> 01:13:47,010
I just wanted to ask you one more question.

1064
01:13:47,730 --> 01:13:51,210
What is one thing, one action people

1065
01:13:51,710 --> 01:13:55,210
could do right now for animals? Give yourself the

1066
01:13:55,710 --> 01:13:57,900
room to do it your way,

1067
01:13:59,100 --> 01:14:03,100
but vow to consume

1068
01:14:03,660 --> 01:14:07,180
fewer of them if you have

1069
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:10,860
listened. I'm sure not everybody on here is vegan.

1070
01:14:11,180 --> 01:14:14,540
Right. Because lots of people identify serious animal lovers.

1071
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:17,740
But don't connect those dots.

1072
01:14:18,700 --> 01:14:23,040
If you have heard and believed that

1073
01:14:23,540 --> 01:14:27,400
animals are as individual and as emotional as we are

1074
01:14:27,900 --> 01:14:30,320
and that pain and suffering feel no differently to them,

1075
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:35,600
then begin that journey.

1076
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,120
It's an important journey. It's the most you can

1077
01:14:40,620 --> 01:14:45,440
possibly do. And if that's too daunting or if you want to do something in

1078
01:14:45,940 --> 01:14:48,480
addition to that, it's good for the heart. Like,

1079
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:52,880
I'm going to soon be volunteering at a shelter in Connecticut

1080
01:14:53,380 --> 01:14:56,220
and I just can't, you know, it's good for the heart and. Dang. Is it

1081
01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:00,340
good for that little animal who might not otherwise get

1082
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:02,860
a pat on the head or get brushed or,

1083
01:15:04,540 --> 01:15:09,420
you know, those are a couple of things. If people are more

1084
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:12,940
inclined to pick up the phone,

1085
01:15:14,380 --> 01:15:17,660
you know, find out what bills are stalled in Congress

1086
01:15:17,820 --> 01:15:21,460
and see, you know, and call your congressman to get a good bill

1087
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:25,130
pushed through through or a bad bill from being pushed through. Right.

1088
01:15:25,450 --> 01:15:28,690
You know, there's. There's so many things. Yeah. People can

1089
01:15:29,190 --> 01:15:32,810
do. Find your space, your comfort zone, and. Do an honest self

1090
01:15:33,310 --> 01:15:36,570
assessment. We all have gifts. Yes.

1091
01:15:36,730 --> 01:15:39,890
What is your most powerful

1092
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:44,490
gift? What is it? Because I can promise

1093
01:15:44,990 --> 01:15:49,060
you animals can use it, name it

1094
01:15:49,540 --> 01:15:52,580
or say it out loud and then ask yourself,

1095
01:15:53,140 --> 01:15:56,820
where and how could I use this in

1096
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:00,180
service to animals? I love that.

1097
01:16:01,700 --> 01:16:04,900
Thank you so much for taking. You're welcome so much.

1098
01:16:05,460 --> 01:16:08,580
Going for a bike ride. Yay. Retirement is good.

1099
01:16:10,180 --> 01:16:13,780
Thank you so much for being here. So much for having this conversation with

1100
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,990
me and for everyone listening. And I hope

1101
01:16:18,490 --> 01:16:21,670
you have a happy. Thanks. Living. Thank you very much.

1102
01:16:22,170 --> 01:16:25,310
I hope you and all your listeners do too. What's your entree?

1103
01:16:26,190 --> 01:16:29,390
My entree, I have three gardein roasts.

1104
01:16:30,190 --> 01:16:33,909
Oh, yum. Okay. And they're good. Yes,

1105
01:16:34,409 --> 01:16:38,550
I love those. And sometimes I make my own roast, but we're focusing

1106
01:16:39,050 --> 01:16:42,870
on sides. And my mom does this wonderful stuffing

1107
01:16:43,370 --> 01:16:46,950
that was my dad's family's recipe. And for some weird reason,

1108
01:16:47,450 --> 01:16:50,950
they always put a hamburger patty in it for years and years. But she,

1109
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:54,430
she. She took that out years ago, even.

1110
01:16:54,930 --> 01:16:58,430
If I weren't vegan. That just sounds weird. I think that sometimes people used

1111
01:16:58,930 --> 01:17:01,470
to put sausage in it or something. But anyway, she took that out years and

1112
01:17:01,970 --> 01:17:05,310
years ago without him knowing. And then. But anyway,

1113
01:17:05,810 --> 01:17:09,350
and then, you know, sweet potatoes with like the streusel topping

1114
01:17:09,670 --> 01:17:13,390
and mashed potatoes. And then I make all the. All the pies and

1115
01:17:13,890 --> 01:17:17,660
all that. So, yeah. So anyway, what's your favorite?

1116
01:17:18,300 --> 01:17:21,740
Gotta say, what's your favorite? One year I stuffed a pumpkin and

1117
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:25,580
I loved it. And so I love that. Oh, my God. With this amazing

1118
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,660
corn. I've seen like butternut squash and stuffed too.

1119
01:17:29,820 --> 01:17:34,100
I like that. Yeah. What I love about the stuffed pumpkin is

1120
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:38,220
that you bring it to the table as a whole pumpkin. Oh. So it's big

1121
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:41,780
and festive. Yeah. And then you slice it the same way you would slice a

1122
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,740
turkey. Oh, I love that. And you pour over the gravy. So it's sort of

1123
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:48,660
subliminally places that ritual that's so important to

1124
01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:52,620
someone. Yes, I know. Yeah. They can carve the pumpkin like on.

1125
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:55,780
Halloween and carve the pumpkin. Yeah.

1126
01:17:56,580 --> 01:17:59,900
All right, well, thank you so much. Patrick, and thank you so

1127
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:02,460
much for having me. It was a pleasure. I will you go on that bike

1128
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,220
ride and then I will see any animals on the way. Oh, yes.

1129
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:11,540
I'm gonna see if we can go. And people can get their tickets online@casanctuary.org.

1130
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,500
I will link that in the show notes and then so people can go right

1131
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,820
to that. And if you see any animals on the way, give them a few

1132
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:21,980
kisses for me, please. I will be happy to do that, I promise. Thank you,

1133
01:18:22,480 --> 01:18:23,740
Kathy. Bye, Nicole. Bye.

1134
01:18:31,020 --> 01:18:34,620
Hey, Nicole here from in behalf of animals,

1135
01:18:34,940 --> 01:18:38,560
we hope you love our show as much as you love animals.

1136
01:18:38,630 --> 01:18:42,630
Animals. And if you do, can you take a quick action to help amplify their

1137
01:18:43,130 --> 01:18:47,470
voices? Simply follow our podcast and write us a five star review

1138
01:18:47,970 --> 01:18:51,510
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you are listening right

1139
01:18:52,010 --> 01:18:55,950
now. It helps new listeners discover the show to learn more about how

1140
01:18:56,450 --> 01:18:59,510
they can join our community and help animals too.

1141
01:18:59,990 --> 01:19:03,910
Thank you for listening and remember to be their voice every chance

1142
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:04,480
you.